The quotation below comes from Collision with the Infinite by Suzanne Segal chapter 6. Although her comments are about therapy they apply equally well to counselling.
"I could never understand why someone would want to pay good money to a person who says little to them, refuses to respond to the simplest of questions, sees in their actions hidden, negative emotions ("the fact that you're two minutes late for therapy means that you're resistant to treatment"), and pathologizes their experience by interpreting everything they do as a sign of some deeper underlying problem. Traditional psychotherapy seems to be based on a primordial fear of mystery, and this fear creates the tendency to reduce, interpret, or pathologize all manifestations of consciousness that do not fit the cultural norm.
Although I am well aware that not all therapists work in this manner, this was the model in which my training took place. It was equally disturbing to hear what analytically orientated psychotherapists said about their patients among themselves. I rarely heard expressions of compassion, sympathy, or even human understanding. Instead each patient had a label according to their diagnosis. "You won't believe what my borderline patient did yesterday." Or, "The obsessive-compulsive I see at 10 o'clock is driving me crazy."
Tuesday, March 31, 2020
Wednesday, March 11, 2020
counselling in action
This is a quotation from the book "Person-Centred Counselling in Action" by Dave Mearns and Brian Thorne. I wanted to include it because there are some people who don't believe that counsellors can be judgmental. They think that the client will have misunderstood what was said to them. Well here you have it in black and white.
Unsuitable people aren't being weeded out during training. This counsellor isn't 'inexperienced', she is unsuited to be a counsellor and should not have been allowed to continue.
A danger for the inexperienced counsellor is that she is drawn into the client's self-fulfiling expectations and becomes increasingly judgemental towards her client. One counsellor reflected upon this during supervision on her work with the client, Andrew:
I realise that as time has gone on I have come to dread appointments with Andrew. He is just so negative that it has drawn me into also becoming negative with him. In recent times I have been increasingly stern with him and have made far too many suggestions as to how he might change his life. I bet I've become more and more cold with him too. For his part I think this has let him retreat more and more into his 'rejected little boy'.
Unsuitable people aren't being weeded out during training. This counsellor isn't 'inexperienced', she is unsuited to be a counsellor and should not have been allowed to continue.
my experience
My experience with counsellors and therapists
In 1994 I went to my doctor because I was depressed. I wanted him to give me antidepressants, but he wanted me to see a counsellor instead. I didn't really want to do this, but I gave it a go, and after a while he started giving me antidepressants too.
The counsellor was called June Le Sueur and she lived in Brighton, although she gave counselling at the doctor's surgery in Tulse Hill. My first impressions were not good. When I told her I was unemployed she said that in her opinion anyone who really wanted a job could get one. This is untrue, and is not something unemployed people wish to be told.
She spent a lot of time trying to persuade me that I am antisocial. I did not accept this. It is true that I am asocial, but what does one expect from someone who is depressed? She also said to me 'You seem to live in a very mean little world' which is judgmental and untrue (and, in my opinion 'mean').
She asked me if, when I go to the supermarket, I smile at the checkout person. I said that I did not, and she said that this is an example of my negativity. However, I started looking at people at checkouts and I did not notice anyone smiling at the staff. So why was she criticising me for not doing something that nobody else was doing?
It was when I mentioned that I was interested in pornography that she turned against me, even more than before. She was a Catholic. She used to move her hands around a lot when she was talking, and she told me not to keep looking at her hands as she moved them around as she found it distracting. I also had to keep my feet flat on the floor.
I was supposed to see her for 6 sessions but I decided not to come to the last one because it wasn't doing me any good, just the opposite. Some time later I was talking to my doctor and I told her that this counsellor was not very good. She wasn't interested. I also mentioned that I thought I might have Asperger's Syndrome, but she wasn't interested in that either. I changed my doctor soon after.
The next year I saw a poster advertizing free counselling in West Norwood. I thought I might give it a go. The counsellor I was assigned to was called Marcia and lived near Streatham Common. Things seemed to go well to begin with and I saw her for several months.
One day we were talking about something unrelated to counselling and I told her that I had a video of a TV programme on the subject and that I could lend it to her if she liked. She said she would like to see it. I knew there were recordings on that tape that I didn't want her to see, so I taped over anything of a sexual nature.
However, for less than a second before the recording she had asked to see there was an image of a street showing a sign 'Red Light Area' or something like that. It was the very end of a documentary on a sexual subject. It did not occur to me that she could have a problem with this.
The week after I lent her the tape she accused me of being some kind of pervert. She said that I had put this image onto the tape deliberately so as to express sexual feelings towards her in a perverted manner. I was shocked that she might think this. Every man fears his actions being misinterpreted by a woman as perverted, but I never expected it could come from a counsellor.
I explained the truth of the matter but I could see she was still suspicious. I managed to convince her after a while. In retrospect I should have told her the next week that I no longer wished to continue with counselling. She seemed to be OK for some time after.
One day she asked me what sort of woman I would like to have a relationship with. I replied that I wouldn't like to start a relationship with a woman who wanted to go out to nightclubs and stuff like that. I wasn't being judgmental, it's just that it's not something I do so there would be no compatibility.
I don't know if this is what offended her (perhaps she goes to nightclubs) but it was about this time she seemed to be becoming more and more irritated by me. She said that I should not talk about other people, but only about myself. A lot of what I had wanted to talk to her about previously involved my unhappy experiences with women; trying to understand why my attempts at involvement had ended in rejection. I don't have a negative view of women, but it might have seemed that way to her.
One week she just became downright nasty. If she had explained to me what her problem with me was, I would not have minded. If she had said to me that she thought that I was a misogynist, and that she did not like misogynists, then we could have talked about it. But she didn't do that, she just became negative in the way that people do when they are irritated but don't want to confront the real issues. She was really weird.
For example, when I mentioned somebody she said in a harsh tone something like 'I'm not having you talk about other people, only about yourself'. Then she asked me a question that was difficult to answer without me mentioning another person. I said to her something like 'If I answer that question you're going to tell me off again for talking about another person' and she just grinned at me in a hostile manner. She said something like 'Am I irritating you? It's OK to be irritated, you know'.
I decided not to come back the next week. I was really upset. I had really opened up to her in a way that I had not with my previous counsellor. She set me back a lot.
I think that part of the problem is that for people who are influenced by the principles of feminism and/or political correctness, it can seem acceptable to demonize someone who is seen as misogynist. Someone can easily become the enemy, and unworthy of consideration.
Another part of the problem is that some counsellors get a sense of satisfaction from thinking that they can help someone to become just like them. It gives their ego a boost. When they realize that the person has no intention of becoming like them then they lose some of their sense of self worth. Similarly, some counsellors get a sense of satisfaction from thinking that they can help someone to fit in with society. If a client considers that the attitudes of others are part of his or her difficulties in life then he or she may not be eager to 'fit in'.
Marcia came across to me when I first met her as unintelligent and uneducated. However, I was willing to give her a chance. It was just too easy for me unintentionally to make her feel inferior.
It was four years later that I decided to approach a doctor again concerning depression. I was hoping she would prescribe an SSRI antidepressant, but instead she asked me to see a psychiatrist. His name was Doctor Basher and I saw him in the same building in West Norwood as I had seen Marcia. I remember that when I was waiting in the waiting room there were other people there, people with serious mental health problems waiting for their injections. I felt out of place.
Doctor Basher decided that I did not have depression, and gave several reasons, none of which made any sense. He said that because I had tried several different antidepressants and none of them had worked, then that shows that I am not suffering from depression. However, it is well known that a depressed person may have to change medications several times before they find one that works for them, and many never find one that works.
He also said that because I have an allotment that I couldn't be depressed. On several occasions over the years I have had my allotment taken away from me because I have not put in the amount of work required. With my present allotment I have been threatened with having it taken away. I find it difficult to organize myself and sustain the required amount of physical activity.
I would agree that someone who goes out clubbing every night could not be described as depressed, but having an allotment is not the same type of activity. Especially if you can't maintain enthusiasm for its upkeep.
There is a centre in Croydon for unemployed people. It had a counsellor there, and I thought I would give it a go. His name was Dennis, and he turned out to be as good a counsellor as anyone could want. He was neither judgmental nor easily offended. He was friendly and placid. I saw him about six times and it was a good experience. I would not have seen him had it not been that I was having big problems in my life at the time, and I do not regret seeing him.
It was in 2004 that I plucked up the courage to see a doctor again about my depression. She gave me an SSRI as I had wanted, and offered me counselling too. For several months I decided against it, but then I started thinking that my negative attitude towards the value of counselling could be part of my illness. I thought it would do no harm to talk to a counsellor, and for he or she to explain to me what counselling could do for me.
The counsellor I was sent to was called Anna Jones. I think that Anna Jones is a good counsellor, in the sense that she is not judgmental or easily irritated, but I did have some problems with her. She asked me what I hoped to gain from counselling. This was a difficult question for me. The reason that I had eventually decided to go for counselling again was because my doctor suggested it and I thought I would give it a go. This didn't seem to be an acceptable answer to her. I was hoping that she could explain to me what benefits counselling could have for me. She didn't seem to want to do this. She was expecting me to clearly articulate goals and aims.
She asked me a number of questions that I struggled to answer. Instead of asking general questions, it would have been better for her to ask more specific questions. She could have asked me, for example, if I hoped to have a relationship with someone in the future, and if I thought that there were any barriers to me achieving this. Whenever I said to her that I did not know how to answer her question she looked puzzled and sat and stared at me. This was quite unnerving for me.
She said to me more than once that if I didn't have any goals then I must be happy just as I am. In my opinion, depressed people lack motivation/enthusiasm, and so are not likely to have goals/aims. But they are not happy as they are. I can see that this idea is becoming less fashionable as ideas from Cognitive Behavioural Therapy become more accepted. The idea of mood disorder, that some people lack motivation and are unhappy without any obvious problem in their lives, seems no longer to be recognized.
Things became easier in time and we got on better. At the end of the counselling sessions she suggested Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. After several months I was asked to go to Tamworth Road Resource Centre for an assessment. This was done over 2 sessions. The assessment was made by Marcus Page.
I didn't get on with Marcus Page from the start. I had some of the problems that I had had with Anna Jones but much worse. I was asked to state my goals and aims, and asked general questions that I found it difficult to answer. When I could not answer a question, which was often, he would sit and stare at me for some time. He gave the impression of being someone who is unhappy with his job and his life and enjoys taking it out on others.
When I got a copy of his assessment it was full of misunderstandings, inaccuracies and things I hadn't said. The document was poorly written, contradicted itself and was full of negative and opinionated comments about me. He had asked me in detail about my sex life and I was surprised to see that he had included these details in the assessment. He sent the assessment to a couple of people apart from me, including my former counsellor. The details about my sex life were things I hadn't discussed with my counsellor. Even more irritating was that the details were inaccurate.
I showed this assessment to a friend of mine who knows about mental health issues, and he was quite angry about it and said it said more about his personality than it did mine. To give you an example of the sort of thing he wrote, let me quote this: "It was striking that I struggled to recall Mr Lewis prior to the second interview and only afterwards did I see how he contributes his becoming a 'non-entity' through his immense difficulty in relating and inability to make use of another". Notice the grammatical error.
He lacked any understanding that a person who is depressed often will lack motivation and enthusiasm and will not be able to articulate goals and aims.
After a few months I started at a CBT group at the Tamworth Road Resource Centre. It was run by 2 therapists, Stuart Colquhoun and Nicki Makin. Prior to this I had had a interview with Stuart. He came across as warm, able to communicate and seemed to know what he was talking about, in contrast to Marcus Page. Although I cannot say that I benefited much from the group, that is more to do with CBT not being suitable for me, rather than a problem with the therapists.
The group ended and later I started individual CBT therapy. My therapist was Doctor Matina Sotrilli. I had none of the problems with her that I had had with Marcus Page or Anna Jones. I knew that she was going to ask me what it was that I hoped to gain from therapy. I thought this would be a problem as before, but she helped me to formulate some goals and aims. There were no embarrassing silences. She is a genuinely compassionate person, intelligent and skilled at her job.
Cognitive Behavioural Therapy hasn't done much for me, but I have been impressed by Dr Matina Sotrilli, Stuart Colquhoun and Nicki Makin. CBT is good for people with phobias or obsessions, which was what it originally was intended for. When used for depression, it can help some people but not others. If someone is depressed for a reason, let's say they have a dysfunctional relationship, then CBT can help to get them sorted out. When they have removed the problem in their life then they can become happier. But I would not call this depression.
Where CBT may not be able to help is where someone does not have an obvious problem that can be solved. CBT therapists don't seem to recognize that many people lack motivation or enthusiasm, and cannot clearly articulate goals or aims.
I'm sure that many people will say that a client will get on better with some counsellors or therapists than with others. That is not what I am talking about; there is no excuse for a counsellor or therapist to be judgmental, easily offended or irritable. If someone has these qualities then they should not be in the profession.
I understand that counselling and therapy are not meant to be easy all the time. I understand that some clients are difficult to please. The problems in the relationship between a client and a counsellor or therapist can derive from the emotional problems that the client has. You may feel that this may be what has happened with me, but I think that I have given a sufficient number of examples of unacceptable attitudes and behaviour from counsellors or therapists to show that is not the case. Counsellors or therapists can have emotional problems too, and this can result in a client not being helped and in some cases harmed.
In 1994 I went to my doctor because I was depressed. I wanted him to give me antidepressants, but he wanted me to see a counsellor instead. I didn't really want to do this, but I gave it a go, and after a while he started giving me antidepressants too.
The counsellor was called June Le Sueur and she lived in Brighton, although she gave counselling at the doctor's surgery in Tulse Hill. My first impressions were not good. When I told her I was unemployed she said that in her opinion anyone who really wanted a job could get one. This is untrue, and is not something unemployed people wish to be told.
She spent a lot of time trying to persuade me that I am antisocial. I did not accept this. It is true that I am asocial, but what does one expect from someone who is depressed? She also said to me 'You seem to live in a very mean little world' which is judgmental and untrue (and, in my opinion 'mean').
She asked me if, when I go to the supermarket, I smile at the checkout person. I said that I did not, and she said that this is an example of my negativity. However, I started looking at people at checkouts and I did not notice anyone smiling at the staff. So why was she criticising me for not doing something that nobody else was doing?
It was when I mentioned that I was interested in pornography that she turned against me, even more than before. She was a Catholic. She used to move her hands around a lot when she was talking, and she told me not to keep looking at her hands as she moved them around as she found it distracting. I also had to keep my feet flat on the floor.
I was supposed to see her for 6 sessions but I decided not to come to the last one because it wasn't doing me any good, just the opposite. Some time later I was talking to my doctor and I told her that this counsellor was not very good. She wasn't interested. I also mentioned that I thought I might have Asperger's Syndrome, but she wasn't interested in that either. I changed my doctor soon after.
The next year I saw a poster advertizing free counselling in West Norwood. I thought I might give it a go. The counsellor I was assigned to was called Marcia and lived near Streatham Common. Things seemed to go well to begin with and I saw her for several months.
One day we were talking about something unrelated to counselling and I told her that I had a video of a TV programme on the subject and that I could lend it to her if she liked. She said she would like to see it. I knew there were recordings on that tape that I didn't want her to see, so I taped over anything of a sexual nature.
However, for less than a second before the recording she had asked to see there was an image of a street showing a sign 'Red Light Area' or something like that. It was the very end of a documentary on a sexual subject. It did not occur to me that she could have a problem with this.
The week after I lent her the tape she accused me of being some kind of pervert. She said that I had put this image onto the tape deliberately so as to express sexual feelings towards her in a perverted manner. I was shocked that she might think this. Every man fears his actions being misinterpreted by a woman as perverted, but I never expected it could come from a counsellor.
I explained the truth of the matter but I could see she was still suspicious. I managed to convince her after a while. In retrospect I should have told her the next week that I no longer wished to continue with counselling. She seemed to be OK for some time after.
One day she asked me what sort of woman I would like to have a relationship with. I replied that I wouldn't like to start a relationship with a woman who wanted to go out to nightclubs and stuff like that. I wasn't being judgmental, it's just that it's not something I do so there would be no compatibility.
I don't know if this is what offended her (perhaps she goes to nightclubs) but it was about this time she seemed to be becoming more and more irritated by me. She said that I should not talk about other people, but only about myself. A lot of what I had wanted to talk to her about previously involved my unhappy experiences with women; trying to understand why my attempts at involvement had ended in rejection. I don't have a negative view of women, but it might have seemed that way to her.
One week she just became downright nasty. If she had explained to me what her problem with me was, I would not have minded. If she had said to me that she thought that I was a misogynist, and that she did not like misogynists, then we could have talked about it. But she didn't do that, she just became negative in the way that people do when they are irritated but don't want to confront the real issues. She was really weird.
For example, when I mentioned somebody she said in a harsh tone something like 'I'm not having you talk about other people, only about yourself'. Then she asked me a question that was difficult to answer without me mentioning another person. I said to her something like 'If I answer that question you're going to tell me off again for talking about another person' and she just grinned at me in a hostile manner. She said something like 'Am I irritating you? It's OK to be irritated, you know'.
I decided not to come back the next week. I was really upset. I had really opened up to her in a way that I had not with my previous counsellor. She set me back a lot.
I think that part of the problem is that for people who are influenced by the principles of feminism and/or political correctness, it can seem acceptable to demonize someone who is seen as misogynist. Someone can easily become the enemy, and unworthy of consideration.
Another part of the problem is that some counsellors get a sense of satisfaction from thinking that they can help someone to become just like them. It gives their ego a boost. When they realize that the person has no intention of becoming like them then they lose some of their sense of self worth. Similarly, some counsellors get a sense of satisfaction from thinking that they can help someone to fit in with society. If a client considers that the attitudes of others are part of his or her difficulties in life then he or she may not be eager to 'fit in'.
Marcia came across to me when I first met her as unintelligent and uneducated. However, I was willing to give her a chance. It was just too easy for me unintentionally to make her feel inferior.
It was four years later that I decided to approach a doctor again concerning depression. I was hoping she would prescribe an SSRI antidepressant, but instead she asked me to see a psychiatrist. His name was Doctor Basher and I saw him in the same building in West Norwood as I had seen Marcia. I remember that when I was waiting in the waiting room there were other people there, people with serious mental health problems waiting for their injections. I felt out of place.
Doctor Basher decided that I did not have depression, and gave several reasons, none of which made any sense. He said that because I had tried several different antidepressants and none of them had worked, then that shows that I am not suffering from depression. However, it is well known that a depressed person may have to change medications several times before they find one that works for them, and many never find one that works.
He also said that because I have an allotment that I couldn't be depressed. On several occasions over the years I have had my allotment taken away from me because I have not put in the amount of work required. With my present allotment I have been threatened with having it taken away. I find it difficult to organize myself and sustain the required amount of physical activity.
I would agree that someone who goes out clubbing every night could not be described as depressed, but having an allotment is not the same type of activity. Especially if you can't maintain enthusiasm for its upkeep.
There is a centre in Croydon for unemployed people. It had a counsellor there, and I thought I would give it a go. His name was Dennis, and he turned out to be as good a counsellor as anyone could want. He was neither judgmental nor easily offended. He was friendly and placid. I saw him about six times and it was a good experience. I would not have seen him had it not been that I was having big problems in my life at the time, and I do not regret seeing him.
It was in 2004 that I plucked up the courage to see a doctor again about my depression. She gave me an SSRI as I had wanted, and offered me counselling too. For several months I decided against it, but then I started thinking that my negative attitude towards the value of counselling could be part of my illness. I thought it would do no harm to talk to a counsellor, and for he or she to explain to me what counselling could do for me.
The counsellor I was sent to was called Anna Jones. I think that Anna Jones is a good counsellor, in the sense that she is not judgmental or easily irritated, but I did have some problems with her. She asked me what I hoped to gain from counselling. This was a difficult question for me. The reason that I had eventually decided to go for counselling again was because my doctor suggested it and I thought I would give it a go. This didn't seem to be an acceptable answer to her. I was hoping that she could explain to me what benefits counselling could have for me. She didn't seem to want to do this. She was expecting me to clearly articulate goals and aims.
She asked me a number of questions that I struggled to answer. Instead of asking general questions, it would have been better for her to ask more specific questions. She could have asked me, for example, if I hoped to have a relationship with someone in the future, and if I thought that there were any barriers to me achieving this. Whenever I said to her that I did not know how to answer her question she looked puzzled and sat and stared at me. This was quite unnerving for me.
She said to me more than once that if I didn't have any goals then I must be happy just as I am. In my opinion, depressed people lack motivation/enthusiasm, and so are not likely to have goals/aims. But they are not happy as they are. I can see that this idea is becoming less fashionable as ideas from Cognitive Behavioural Therapy become more accepted. The idea of mood disorder, that some people lack motivation and are unhappy without any obvious problem in their lives, seems no longer to be recognized.
Things became easier in time and we got on better. At the end of the counselling sessions she suggested Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. After several months I was asked to go to Tamworth Road Resource Centre for an assessment. This was done over 2 sessions. The assessment was made by Marcus Page.
I didn't get on with Marcus Page from the start. I had some of the problems that I had had with Anna Jones but much worse. I was asked to state my goals and aims, and asked general questions that I found it difficult to answer. When I could not answer a question, which was often, he would sit and stare at me for some time. He gave the impression of being someone who is unhappy with his job and his life and enjoys taking it out on others.
When I got a copy of his assessment it was full of misunderstandings, inaccuracies and things I hadn't said. The document was poorly written, contradicted itself and was full of negative and opinionated comments about me. He had asked me in detail about my sex life and I was surprised to see that he had included these details in the assessment. He sent the assessment to a couple of people apart from me, including my former counsellor. The details about my sex life were things I hadn't discussed with my counsellor. Even more irritating was that the details were inaccurate.
I showed this assessment to a friend of mine who knows about mental health issues, and he was quite angry about it and said it said more about his personality than it did mine. To give you an example of the sort of thing he wrote, let me quote this: "It was striking that I struggled to recall Mr Lewis prior to the second interview and only afterwards did I see how he contributes his becoming a 'non-entity' through his immense difficulty in relating and inability to make use of another". Notice the grammatical error.
He lacked any understanding that a person who is depressed often will lack motivation and enthusiasm and will not be able to articulate goals and aims.
After a few months I started at a CBT group at the Tamworth Road Resource Centre. It was run by 2 therapists, Stuart Colquhoun and Nicki Makin. Prior to this I had had a interview with Stuart. He came across as warm, able to communicate and seemed to know what he was talking about, in contrast to Marcus Page. Although I cannot say that I benefited much from the group, that is more to do with CBT not being suitable for me, rather than a problem with the therapists.
The group ended and later I started individual CBT therapy. My therapist was Doctor Matina Sotrilli. I had none of the problems with her that I had had with Marcus Page or Anna Jones. I knew that she was going to ask me what it was that I hoped to gain from therapy. I thought this would be a problem as before, but she helped me to formulate some goals and aims. There were no embarrassing silences. She is a genuinely compassionate person, intelligent and skilled at her job.
Cognitive Behavioural Therapy hasn't done much for me, but I have been impressed by Dr Matina Sotrilli, Stuart Colquhoun and Nicki Makin. CBT is good for people with phobias or obsessions, which was what it originally was intended for. When used for depression, it can help some people but not others. If someone is depressed for a reason, let's say they have a dysfunctional relationship, then CBT can help to get them sorted out. When they have removed the problem in their life then they can become happier. But I would not call this depression.
Where CBT may not be able to help is where someone does not have an obvious problem that can be solved. CBT therapists don't seem to recognize that many people lack motivation or enthusiasm, and cannot clearly articulate goals or aims.
I'm sure that many people will say that a client will get on better with some counsellors or therapists than with others. That is not what I am talking about; there is no excuse for a counsellor or therapist to be judgmental, easily offended or irritable. If someone has these qualities then they should not be in the profession.
I understand that counselling and therapy are not meant to be easy all the time. I understand that some clients are difficult to please. The problems in the relationship between a client and a counsellor or therapist can derive from the emotional problems that the client has. You may feel that this may be what has happened with me, but I think that I have given a sufficient number of examples of unacceptable attitudes and behaviour from counsellors or therapists to show that is not the case. Counsellors or therapists can have emotional problems too, and this can result in a client not being helped and in some cases harmed.
mumsnet thread
counsellors who are no good at their jobs Mumsnet
this is an edited version of the Mumsnet thread - to see all the posts look on Mumsnet
Kim666 Sat 30-Sep-17 16:04:59
HanarCantWearSweaters Sat 30-Sep-17 17:35:39
Isadora2007 Sat 30-Sep-17 18:23:41
hippocrit Sat 30-Sep-17 18:39:24
Eggsellent Sat 30-Sep-17 19:01:56
hippocrit Sat 30-Sep-17 19:12:23
hippocrit Sat 30-Sep-17 19:14:49
Eggsellent Sat 30-Sep-17 19:51:29
Ohwell14 Sat 30-Sep-17 20:25:46
MsAwesomeDragon Sat 30-Sep-17 20:26:41
custardcreamplease Sat 30-Sep-17 20:34:17
MummytoCSJH Sat 30-Sep-17 20:38:59
LRDtheFeministDragon Sat 30-Sep-17 20:40:33
hippocrit Sun 01-Oct-17 12:32:46
sparklefarts Sun 01-Oct-17 12:47:17
Toddlerteaplease Sun 01-Oct-17 12:57:47
Jenna43 Sun 01-Oct-17 15:29:27
Kim666 Tue 24-Oct-17 16:14:42
Kim666 Thu 02-Nov-17 14:19:00
Viewofhedges Thu 02-Nov-17 22:44:34
Kim666 Sat 30-Sep-17 16:04:59
Over the years I have had a few counsellors. My experience is that it's a bit of a myth that there are these wonderful nonjudgmental people out there who just want to help.---
I had one who when I mentioned that I'm unemployed she said "As far as I'm concerned, anyone who really wants a job can get one". First of all that's not true, secondly why would she say that?
I know some people will say that all counsellors will be good at their jobs, but they might just not suit you. Some will say that the problem must be with you.
I've heard things about people's experiences of counsellors that make me think there are people doing that job who shouldn't be doing it. A woman who was grieving the loss of a pet was told that she's just being stupid because it's just an animal. The boy who'd been abused who was told several times that when he grew up he would be an abuser too.
I'd like to know other people's experiences. I suspect that articulate middle-class people are less likely to have a problem.
HanarCantWearSweaters Sat 30-Sep-17 17:35:39
The first time I ever spoke out loud about the things that happened in my childhood was to a counsellor at my university's student health centre. She asked me when I was going to stop wallowing.---
It took 6 years and getting into a very bleak place before I tried again.
Isadora2007 Sat 30-Sep-17 18:23:41
The huge issue is that any twat can call themselves a counsellor. It's not regulated.---
Even "NHS counsellors" can be MH nurses rather than counsellors. Or psychologists can counsel but not have counselling qualifications.
It's really awful how much trust is put into people who can take advantage of it.
If you are receiving counselling you have every right to ask about the persons qualifications- a diploma in counselling is the minimum three should have and their course should be BACP accredited even if they themselves aren't (counsellors in an agency often don't waste the money getting personal accreditation)...
hippocrit Sat 30-Sep-17 18:39:24
NC for this. I have encountered far too many terrible counsellors sadly.---
A little while ago I was legitimately worried about something serious and almost completely beyond my control and and expressed to someone who is a counsellor that I really hoped it would work out. She said to me "well if you want it to be OK then I'm sure it will be". I looked at her thinging WTF? As if wanting is all it takes to get the result we want!
She could have said, "good luck, fingers crossed, hope so" but she did actually, seriously mean what she said and started to back it up with other trite comments.
A previous time she had commented when I had, in private, been a little stressed and upset (about the very serious issue) that I needed to "be careful of the energy I put out there" and not be too negative or it would affect other people. Jeez, talk about victim blaming. I wasn't going around crying or being awful to people - I just expressed in private the depth of my concern and showed some emotion to someone who went out of their way to ask me what was wrong.
She is sadly another one of those peddlars of glib, irrational optimism who have little understanding of real and serious problems or how the real world actually works.
I have seen one counsellor who was good though - but sadly she moved areas.
I think the training is totally inadequate. It is one thing to write essays, but much, much more attention needs to be paid to practical application and manner of speaking to clients.
They should also be regularly tested anonymously I think - like mystery shopping to see how they conduct themsleves once they are left to their own devices (and their old habits and prejudces begin to slip out). As far as I know, there is nothing that assesses their competence and attitude in real life conditions once they have qualified. I think this is very risky for people who can be very vulnerable (who should be referred for proper MH treatment but instead get sent to undereducated counsellors).
Eggsellent Sat 30-Sep-17 19:01:56
I'm a counsellor and I agree with a lot of the comments on here but just to respond to hippocrit in order to gain a qualification that enables you to work with clients you have to do 100 hours practice as well as the academic work.---
I've seen some awful counsellors myself but I think that as with everything sometimes people just don't click, these ones had great reviews on their websites so some people obviously found them helpful.
hippocrit Sat 30-Sep-17 19:12:23
eggsellent is the 100 hours practice all carried out under constant supervision? If not, it should be. And under secret supervision/ spot checks.---
It is very under regualted/ accountable for something that can deal with vulnerable people - and cna be used as a 'hoop' that must be jumped thorugh, before gaining access to proper MH care and the counsellors opinion can carry weight with a GP for example.
There has to be something wrong with the training/ qualification system otherwise there wouldn't be so many unsuitable people doing it.
hippocrit Sat 30-Sep-17 19:14:49
[Flowers] to everyone who has been hurt by a shitty counsellor. No one needs to be kicked when you are already down [sad]---
Eggsellent Sat 30-Sep-17 19:51:29
Hippocrit not supervised as in someone physically sitting in the room with you while you counsel but students have to report back to their supervisor (all counsellors have supervision sessions but students have more) iirc it was an hour's supervision for every 4 hours with clients. It's a difficult one because there are probably very few people who would feel comfortable talking about personal matters in front of 2 people and the services that take on students are usually free or low cost so they would then have to pay the supervisor. I think the secret shopper idea is brilliant though. Sorry you had a bad experience.---
Ohwell14 Sat 30-Sep-17 20:25:46
I had a counsellor as a young teen when I was sexually abused. She was the most unsympathetic cow I have ever met. Had a go at me when as she said "I cried too much". Told me if i didn't go back to school I wouldn't have any friends left and then seemed surprised when i didn't want to talk to her. She finally dropped me after four sessions and I couldn't of been happier. Had to deal with it myself after that but it was better than being made to feel more shit by someone.---
But of course in every profession there is always good and bad
MsAwesomeDragon Sat 30-Sep-17 20:26:41
The coldest, least emotional person I know is a counsellor. I met her a long time ago, professionally, through my job back then. I was absolutely gobsmacked when she told me she's a counsellor, and I'm thoroughly glad that I've never needed the counselling she specialises in. She didn't seem to have any awareness at all that certain traumatic events in the past could have any influence on a person's behaviour in the present/future.---
custardcreamplease Sat 30-Sep-17 20:34:17
Yanbu.---
There is a very popular counselling course at my local FE college, and through my work I know quite a bit about it/the people on it. Honestly it's put me off ever going for counselling myself. No doubt there are some fantastic ones out there, but I think it does tend to attract some very odd people who shouldn't be in the job. I think you can say the same for teachers, police etc-, there will always be people who join because they like the power trip- but you generally aren't in a room on your own with them, making yourself very vulnerable by opening up
MummytoCSJH Sat 30-Sep-17 20:38:59
I am diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and have suffered abuse and loss in the past. A past counsellor (whilst it was considered just depression) told me I should never have children because I'll probably end up abusing them. Happy to report that my 3 year old is doing incredibly, I love him with all of my heart and the counsellor was dismissed after several similar complaints. I have also worked with some fantastic counsellors - so it's definitely not everyone.---
LRDtheFeministDragon Sat 30-Sep-17 20:40:33
I think it's training and expectations, too.---
I was assigned counselling when I was about 19, at university, and unbeknown to me, the idea was that the counsellor stayed silent and just let you talk. I was quite shy and nervous and I had no idea of this, so I had these absolutely awful sessions where I'd try to find more ways to ask 'so what should we be talking about' or 'I'm sure I'm meant to be talking about something here' and he'd reply with the most vague things ever. I actually found it really upsetting! Looking back I think he was such an idiot not to realise I'd never been briefed on the kind of therapy it was and therefore genuinely didn't get it. At the time I thought I was going mad and I'd end up getting all panicky from sitting there for an hour completely unable to get this man to respond to me in any normal human way.
Really horrible.
hippocrit Sun 01-Oct-17 12:32:46
eggsellent thanks for the info re the practice hours. That is the situation I expected.---
The thing is 100 hours is not much really, only a few weeks or months and it is the training and assessment of how to conduct the sessions that seems to be severely lacking. The standards set are just not high enough for something that can do real damage to people.
sparklefarts Sun 01-Oct-17 12:47:17
Been put off for life by the one I saw when I was 17. I was young and had no idea what to say. When I said I wasn't sure what to say, her response was 'well what's the point in being here then'---
Never went back.
Many years later and I still think I'd need some prompting to get me to start talking or know where to start so I figure it's just not for me...
Toddlerteaplease Sun 01-Oct-17 12:57:47
I got compared to Beverly Allit by a psychiatrist years ago, because I was a self harmer and a children’s nurse. I was so shocked and gobsmacked by that I could t react to it at the time. I wish I’d made a formal complaint at the time. But didn’t think anyone would believe me. An occupational health doctor looked [hmm] when I told him. And asked if that was what she’d actually said. Err yes it was! Turns out that she’d been involved in the Allit inquiry.---
Jenna43 Sun 01-Oct-17 15:29:27
My old neighbour,who was a highly qualified counsellor, was an absolute nightmare of a woman. Her house was absolutely chaotic, I don't mean just a bit untidy, I mean doors lying across the sitting room floor, boxes everywhere, no room to sit anywhere for all the 'stuff'....she told me in all seriousness that she was opening a clinic and working from home(it never happened) but the fact that she thought this was possible horrified me.---
She was a narcissist and her whole family were NC with her. She didn't have custody of her 2 oldest kids, the younger child she had in her care was left to run wild. How she manages to hold down a job never mind counsel people, I'll never know. I was so so happy when she left, 10 minutes in this womans company was exhausting.
Kim666 Tue 24-Oct-17 16:14:42
yorkshapudding said When we're distressed it can distort our perception of events and conversations. I think what happens is that people interpret what their counsellor says in the least negative way. They don't want to believe that their counsellor is being judgmental. I know with me I thought to myself "These people are specially selected and trained to be nonjudgmental". The fact is that some people can't resist the temptation to be judgmental, even though the first rule of counselling is not to be.---
One of my counsellors really did say to me "As far as I'm concerned, anyone who really wants a job can get one". That's not the worst thing she said.
Kim666 Thu 02-Nov-17 14:19:00
You can say that some counsellors and clients don't 'click' but I think counsellors have their favourites, which is not right. If you have an articulate middle-class counsellor who has an articulate middle-class client they may well get on like a house on fire. If the counsellor also has a client who lives in an inner-city bedsit, is socially isolated, has difficulty knowing what to say, has been living off benefits for a long time and worries he may be too obsessed with pornography then the counsellor may get judgmental.---
There might not be anyone in that person's life who likes them, then they realize that the counsellor doesn't like them either. That can be very damaging to them, and it may take years before they seek help again, if ever. You might say that the client is misinterpreting what the counsellor has said to them in a negative way.
However, they might not know what to make of the judgmental remarks to begin with. They might think that counsellors are selected and trained to be nonjudgmental. It's only when the judgmental remarks continue and get worse they realize that's not true. The counsellor may decide to stare at the client and not say anything, making the client very uncomfortable.
If they try to tell anyone what has happened they won't be believed. They will be told that no counsellor would say that, they must have distorted what the counsellor said. They will be told there are no bad counsellors, you just didn't click, or you weren't willing to see things from differing perspectives, or you were too emotional to understand what was being said to you.
It would be nice if people unsuitable to be counsellors were weeded out at the training stage. Bad counsellors are not the occasional bad apple though and a bad counsellor is not going to be able to supervise trainee counsellors in such a way that the bad ones get weeded out. A review system wouldn't work because counsellors would get good reviews from their favourites.
I'm not saying that people should not go for counselling, but people should be aware there are some bad ones. If they say something that sounds judgmental or wrong, then ask them to explain what they mean.
Viewofhedges Thu 02-Nov-17 22:44:34
I went for counselling at a fertility clinic because I was trying to work out if I could go through ivf and to sort out my conflicting feelings about it. Counsellor told me that I couldn’t possibly be unsure about wanting children and that because I had doubts I “shouldn’t bother.” Apparently ‘everyone else is 100% sure and everyone has children in their lives’ (I do not have a single one). She was so judgemental because I wasn’t foaming at the mouth in my desire to have kids (but this was why I wanted to work through my thoughts!!!!) and I think, looking back, her attitude was very harmful to me.---
I also think I annoyed her by likening having a child to going on a one way trip to Guatemala (logic being you don’t know what it’s like til you get there but you can’t come back, I was trying to explain what I saw as the absurdity of the decision) and she looked at me like I’d crawled out from under a stone. I don’t think I fitted her idea of mother material....
the problem with counselling
In 2017 I started a thread on Mumsnet called 'counsellors who are no good at their jobs'. The conversation that was started was very revealing. Bad experiences with counsellors are common. People are being harmed. Something needs to be done about it.
It is only to be expected that occasionally there will be a serious abuser. I'm not talking about the occasional serious abuser though. A good proportion of counsellors - possibly even a majority - don't understand how to do their jobs properly. These people need to be weeded out at the training stage. They should be told that they are unsuitable to be counsellors and stopped. This isn't happening.
The first rule of counselling is that the counsellor should not be judgmental. Yet so many are. They can't resist the temptation.
The next post in this blog is the Mumsnet thread that I started, I used the username Kim666.
The one after is a web page that I wrote about my own experience of depression, counselling and therapy. I put it on the internet years ago and it is still there somewhere.
The one after is quoting from the book 'Person-Centred Counselling in Action' by Dave Mearns and Brian Thorne. A counsellor is mean to her client but is described as merely inexperienced when her behaviour is totally unacceptable.
The one after is quoting from the book 'Collision with the Infinite' by Suzanne Segal. The book is mostly about spirituality but has some very interesting things to say about counselling and therapy.
It is only to be expected that occasionally there will be a serious abuser. I'm not talking about the occasional serious abuser though. A good proportion of counsellors - possibly even a majority - don't understand how to do their jobs properly. These people need to be weeded out at the training stage. They should be told that they are unsuitable to be counsellors and stopped. This isn't happening.
The first rule of counselling is that the counsellor should not be judgmental. Yet so many are. They can't resist the temptation.
The next post in this blog is the Mumsnet thread that I started, I used the username Kim666.
The one after is a web page that I wrote about my own experience of depression, counselling and therapy. I put it on the internet years ago and it is still there somewhere.
The one after is quoting from the book 'Person-Centred Counselling in Action' by Dave Mearns and Brian Thorne. A counsellor is mean to her client but is described as merely inexperienced when her behaviour is totally unacceptable.
The one after is quoting from the book 'Collision with the Infinite' by Suzanne Segal. The book is mostly about spirituality but has some very interesting things to say about counselling and therapy.
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